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Shit We Don't Talk About
Shit We Don’t Talk About is the podcast that takes on topics we should be talking about more often and openly. Guests and topics will be incredibly diverse, sometimes painful, sometimes joyful but all things we need to talk about candidly to keep us all informed and connected. Some topics may be triggering so please listen with care.
Shit We Don't Talk About
Ep. 92 - The Evolution of Diversity, Equity, and Inclusion - Deborah Burgess
Deborah Burgess returns to discuss the evolution of Diversity, Equity and Inclusion (DEI) initiatives from the 1960s to present day, exploring how what began with the Civil Rights movement has grown into a projected $24.4 billion global industry by 2030.
• History of DEI from the 1960s with affirmative action to today's comprehensive approaches
• Notable milestones including the first Employee Resource Group at Xerox in the 1970s
• Americans with Disabilities Act signed by George H.W. Bush in 1991
• How social movements like Me Too (founded by Tarana Burke) and Black Lives Matter shaped modern DEI
• Current backlash against DEI initiatives and how terminology may evolve while the work continues
• DEI's global growth despite political challenges, with companies recognizing both moral and business imperatives
• The importance of courage in continuing to advocate for equity and inclusion
• White allies' responsibility to have difficult conversations and call in problematic behavior
About Deborah Burgess:
Deborah has 21 years of university teaching experience including teaching in Beijing, China at the University of Colorado Denver's Global Campus for six years. This was a tremendous experience teaching students courses in Business and Professional Speaking, Public Speaking, and Essential Communication in a Global Society. Additionally Deborah has consulting/training experience working domestically for non-profits, federal, state and private industry in Diversity Equity and Inclusion, Gender and Communication and Appropriate Business Communication in Corporate Settings. Deborah conducted training classes at Beijing Foreign Studies University in China teaching mid-level executives of China Construction Bank and China Southern Airlines skills/tools in the American Mass Media and Communication. Her belief is: “I’m not a teacher, but an awakener.” ~ Robert Frost
Connect with Deborah:
Find Mia On Social Media here.
Listen and subscribe to the podcast: Apple Podcasts | Spotify
Hey, welcome to the latest episode of Shit. We Don't Talk About the podcast that takes on topics that need more open and honest discussion, which means some of these topics are triggering. So please take care when listening and I'll always give you a trigger warning. For instance, here's one Every episode contains swear words.
Speaker 1:You've been warned, Make sure to check out the show notes, which include an accessibility transcript of the podcast and all of the links for our guests at shitwedonttalkaboutpodcastcom. We have another great episode with Debra Burgess, and this time we're talking about DEI diversity, equity and inclusion and its history through the years and how it's doing now. Which spoiler alert, it's not great. Tune in, it gets good. Here we go and we're back Round two. Hi, Debra, Hi, how are you doing, Mia? I am doing great, because I know you have got your binder full of quotes and we're going to start this session off Right here. Right, Look at that.
Speaker 2:The book according to Debra, and that is really according to a lot of people. I'm just being facetious.
Speaker 1:Which I love. Oh, you know, let's start with our identifiers before I even get that far. So if you didn't hear our last episode, this is episode two. I'm Mia Voss, your host. I am a blonde white woman, menopausal, so you could see a hot flash and definitely some low grade anger coming through, and I'm wearing a green T-shirt how about?
Speaker 2:you, debra, oh yeah, so you probably can't see it. If you see it on film, I actually got on a purple t-shirt and I've got a a gold chain on that has a lion on it. That's a whole nother story. I tell you about um black female, african-american, a black female. Any one of those is fine. She, her and hers are my pronoun identifiers.
Speaker 1:Me too. Thank you, I appreciate that.
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:Tell us about your hair, because it looks amazing.
Speaker 2:Yes, you mean my hair. You said my hair.
Speaker 1:Oh yeah.
Speaker 2:Let me so they don't see the hair. So I keep my hair shaved at one sixteenth of an inch. Reason being is I am a swimmer. I have. I didn't learn how to swim until I'm 70 now, until I was 30, because I wanted to do triathlons, and you can't do a triathlon if you don't know how to swim. So I started cutting my hair this length I call it a wash and go cut, which I've mentioned before.
Speaker 1:And I feel like you're swimming as part of your spiritual program. I bet.
Speaker 2:Oh, absolutely the swimming. Two days a week of weight training and then I do seven days a week of my light meditations, even if it's one minute, two minutes, to have some quiet time to center myself Absolutely.
Speaker 1:Those are programs. You need to start a program.
Speaker 2:first I thought about being a trainer, getting into COVID, but then I said, you know, with the COVID and all of that and the mask, I don't know, but I do have something to say. This is great being an online coach, which I love doing.
Speaker 1:I love that, and, but you're living, living by example. All right, you've got a quote for me which I know who it is, but everybody else does.
Speaker 2:I know who it is now, but tell me what it is now Nobody don't, and don't worry folks, when I can tell this to, even African-American people, don't get it right. Ok, so here's a quote. It says a community is democratic only when the humblest and weakest person can enjoy the highest civil, economic and social rights that the biggest and most powerful possess. And the person who said that was worked steadfastly with dr martin luther king his name. Who said this is a capital, a dot philip randolph. A philip randolph was the intricate part of dr martin luther king and his, you know, association with him didn't end up in the binder.
Speaker 1:New, new, new to me, right, which is wonderful. Is he still alive?
Speaker 2:No, I think Mr Randolph has passed. He's passed on. I don't remember the date, I would have to look that up. But very interesting, you know he had. You know Dr King had a whole bevy of and you mentioned it before. You thought maybe it was John Lewis. John Lewis also, he was walking on that bridge. You know, john Lewis was a young man. He almost, I think he had I don't know if he got a cracked skull, got hit over the head.
Speaker 1:He did, and I think what's interesting, with folks who we're going to obviously talk about the history of DEI and it'll be a good one Debra sent me some really good links as well, too there's a lot of people who are like, well, john lewis walked across the bridge it was, that was the pedestal bridge and like that was it. And we're good to go on civil rights. But that quote is so juicy, though, from mr randolph, that that is the crux of, I mean, late stage capitalism. I mean, and and you'll even see it, when people talk about immigration and ice and so forth, they do a lot of well. They, you know, they, they, they pick in the fields, or they do this. Or I mean, and you'll even see it, when people talk about immigration and ICE and so forth, they do a lot of well. They, you know, they pick in the fields, or they do this or that. I'm like why do we even have to add a qualifier to this person's worth, to why they should deserve to be treated fairly?
Speaker 2:Exactly, it's a good reminder.
Speaker 1:I even had to check myself on that. Do you know what I mean? A qualifier?
Speaker 2:A quality, what was great, and I know people say, well then, why are you leaving the country? If you feel it's great, I do think it's great. But if you look at when we go talk about DEI, it has been what we now call a DEI, what we now call the. It has been a slow progression of stages, starting in, I think. What did we say? What I sent you? I took some notes here myself, but I sent you the entire article, starting as early as the 1960s. So let's just think of it as though you're 62, you're 60. Right, right, I'm 10 years older than you. So I was thinking about you, your age in 1960. So you're 60. So that means you were born in what? 65. So you were only just five years old. You weren't even in elementary school.
Speaker 1:You probably I don't know if you- went to kindergarten, I wasn't really cognizant of what was going on until, let's face it, I mean 70, 71. You know, you have your core memories and so forth. I do remember this will crack you up they had this fake election in kindergarten that they had kids vote and I voted for McGovern. Just so you know.
Speaker 1:And I remember specifically using this crayon to do the M and everything. And everybody else voted for Nixon. I don't know why I thought that just my first election. But so, leading into that, to bounce it back to you with this article of you know, you thinking about my age, I was specifically thinking about you, so you're absolutely right. So when did DEI start? This is an article from Forbes, by a woman named Julie Kratz, and this is what Deborah had said to me the little known history of DEI and why it's critical to survival. That little last sentence of it. So yes, 1960s, following the US Civil Rights Act, which was 1965. Affirmative action, which is. You know, there's all these phrases and we're going to go through this too that turn problematic. Every time They'll take a positive phrase. I mean, we're talking everything from affirmative action, headstart, blm, crt, dea. They just make it, they turn it shitty every time.
Speaker 1:So affirmative action policies were implemented to proactively address the historical underrepresentation of certain groups, right? So here's the tough thing. As we go through this too, both Simni, my age and your age, look at how we were born or were raised in these times where change was happening, so 70s. Over time, the concept expanded to encompass gender with the rise of the feminist movement. Shirley Chisholm, that's right, I remember her.
Speaker 2:I saw her. Over time, the concept expanded to encompass gender with the rise of the feminist movement.
Speaker 1:Shirley Chisholm, that's right.
Speaker 2:I remember her, I saw it. Oh, I admire her. Oh God, I get goosebumps.
Speaker 1:1972 when she, oh my goodness and I think they've done a movie with her, about her recently that I need to see so Running for US President and the attempt at the ERA, the Equal Rights Amendment, and I got an ERA bracelet.
Speaker 2:I don't have it on. Maybe next time we're on. If we are on the next time, I'll show you my. It's the original ERA bracelet and I marched in the ERA parade in Tallahassee. I think it was 16 or 17.
Speaker 1:So that's right there. That is what I was thinking specifically, why it is so hard for my friends who are in their late 60s, 70s, early 80s. They were there for this.
Speaker 2:You just said it, you were 16 years old.
Speaker 1:So I mean so you were born in 55, right 55,.
Speaker 2:that's right. Yeah, so February 11th 55.
Speaker 1:You got to see all that, and I've got this book too and I want to talk about it, so you're 10 years younger.
Speaker 2:You were just too young, I was 15. That means that you would maybe like at my 16, you were like maybe what six?
Speaker 1:right yeah, five or six.
Speaker 2:So you know, aware of it.
Speaker 1:I grew up in a college town in Champaign-Urbana, illinois, so you know it's really interesting because I've had a couple of my friends on that. We all went to high school together, african-american friends and basically anybody who doesn't look like me. We've had conversations about what it was like for us. We were in a bit of an idyllic place because there was a lot of integration around us and then we sort of had to get out to realize, oh gosh, that's not. You know, growing up in a college town did have its advantages to that as well. But again back to you. That's what's interesting and I think it's so heartbreaking. And I saw a woman interviewed at one of the parades this past weekend, a woman in her late seventies, and she is just in tears and sobbing about just feeling so betrayed and so down and I'm, I'm, I can.
Speaker 1:I'm sure that's what you're experiencing too, Like we thought we were making progress.
Speaker 2:Exactly.
Speaker 1:You were there for it.
Speaker 2:It's sort of like it's going in reverse. That's why I wanted to send you that article which I looked, like you said, on Forbes. Just look at the progression the sixties, the sevents, the 80s.
Speaker 1:And so for me, the 80s. So then they also mentioned that the first ERG, the first employee resource group, was created at Xerox in the 70s. Yes, and then you come into the 80s, which was my time more of like being in my teens, getting a job, getting out into the corporate world. Movement continued to expand beyond racial issues and gender to embrace broader spectrum of diversity.
Speaker 1:During this period, dei initiatives. This is really interesting. Dei initiatives began to recognize the diverse needs of various groups, including ethnic, religious and LGBTQ plus communities, so of course that's when AIDS came out. Now we all know how that was treated, and why it was so problematic.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, fucking joke right, rock hudson remember the thing with him, so you old enough for them. So at your age. At that time, you understood that. What were you, what were you thinking?
Speaker 1:you know, when that was going on so that and such a great question, because I was coming into my sexual age right At that. Like I graduated, I was a little bit of a late bloomer I graduated in 83 and really didn't start, you know, doing the business until then, and but it was so interesting to come into that time and then be raised by parents who had gone through the sexual revolution, the fifties and sixties, and then to be hit this incredible brick wall of you know, like you don't. You didn't know at the time, right, yes, of course, at that time in the early 80s it was still, you know, gay, gay cancer. You didn't know. And that's when you started to realize like, oh my gosh, you, you, you don't know what's going to happen If you've been with this one person. You're going to be.
Speaker 1:But you remember how they'd say that if you're kind of sleeping with all the people that they've slept with. So it was an incredible, incredibly weird time to come of age and have people who are older than me my parents age be like man, you guys are screwed, right. So that was kind of the interesting thing too. So here's so, so, same. So you were in your 15 to 25, you were 25 to 25 in the eighties, the nineties, going into that.
Speaker 2:And that's so interesting. When you go you look at this progression so so. So you talk about 19, like 1990, I was one of the five. So what is that? I was 35. And guess what? I started getting into teaching. I actually went back to graduate school at DU, university of Denver, and got my master's degree and I never would have thought I thought I was going to always stay in law enforcement. I tell clients this and got in there. One of my professors at DU said you'd make a great college teacher. Just the honest to God truth. I started in 91 and in at the university at DU and graduated and what was it? Through 93, literally left. In May interview she told me to go and interview for I started as an adjunct at the University of Colorado, ucd. And guess what? What I started getting into? I started teaching a lot of classes in diversity and communication and that just spread.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and let me ask you at that time Colorado was still kind of red, right? Oh yes.
Speaker 2:Right. I moved to Denver in December of 1989.
Speaker 1:Okay, okay, and I got here in 95, and I think it was leaning towards a little bit of purple.
Speaker 2:I think it was purple then, kind of.
Speaker 1:And then it started going more to blue. Yeah, and listen, we're not out of the woods, we know.
Speaker 2:I'm not out of the woods we got that piece of garbage, Lauren. We've got a woman who is part of a school board. What's that woman name? I forget, I think it's, I think it's.
Speaker 1:Oh gosh, I'll. I'll think of her Cause I've gotten into it on online too.
Speaker 2:She tried to come for me and I had to give her that I'm not the one or the two. Good for you.
Speaker 1:You are barking up the right tree.
Speaker 2:I'm going to find her name too, I want to out her.
Speaker 1:I have no problem with that.
Speaker 2:I know what you're talking about.
Speaker 1:And yeah, she's in, I think HD 39, I believe, and she did one. It was a wonderful woman running against.
Speaker 2:Lauren Boebert too, I can't call a woman, but she was tall, I can't remember that woman's name, but I remember I was so rooting for her.
Speaker 1:Yes, and so again. This is why it's so important to vote right in the mid terms as well, too. We have another chance, but yeah, so how interesting that you were here in the nineties for that too, and that's what I was going to point out too. In the 90s, it was when they came up with titles like chief diversity officer, and also the ADA was passed, the Americans with Disabilities Act you know who passed?
Speaker 2:that. Can you remember who signed the bill in 91? I think it was 1991. I used to talk about this in my class. Guess who that was. See, if you can figure out who it was, daddy Bush. Daddy Bush, the first one signed that. You can look it up, I swear. Yes, yes. Americans with Disabilities Act. Daddy George Bush, the first one. I always call him Daddy Bush. I'm not trying to be insulting for people that are Republican listening out there. That's the easy way to distinguish daddy from son.
Speaker 1:Yep, right Another one. So Trisha Calvarese, who?
Speaker 1:ran against that's right, calvarese, calvarese and what's interesting about that, and this is where you really do need to pay attention to things that just sort of randomly come on the internet. There's a woman who, for some reason, some of the influencers have been like, oh, she's running against Lauren Bulbert again or she's going to run in that, and it's not Trisha Calvarese, but it's somebody who I feel like is a little bit of a dino, from what I understand the Dems in name only, and has a little bit more money, and so I've been bouncing into these conversations to say like, hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, this is a new person who has not been in this district. Meanwhile, there, with all these different things going on in Colorado, I see Tricia still posting going to town hall meetings, being out there, even though she didn't win Right, and so.
Speaker 1:I do try to really be like but but you know she's smart to do it.
Speaker 2:You didn't win, but you're stealing the people's psyche and you're stealing their sights. That's what you want to want?
Speaker 1:Yeah, and that's why I'm trying to speak up and be like hey, whoa, whoa, whoa, there's somebody else who's here in the trenches. Please don't dilute this. This goes back to our conversation from the last episode about Dems being problematic. They shooting themselves in the foot. But yeah, and I. It's so interesting, I was posting about DEI and and boy, somebody really came, came at me.
Speaker 2:Is it something you could talk about right now? You don't have to hear it. I like to hear what they have to say.
Speaker 1:Well, they were just so butt hurt when. And I'm like, hey, the little notches in the curb so that people can get up there with their, with their wheelchairs, the different abilities, like that's DEI, to make it equitable for somebody. And I was like, dude, what if you broke your leg tomorrow? Right, you're going to be so fucking thankful for all these different things that are put in place handrails, again, like curves, all these different things so that it's not just thinking about the mono-abled right. Everybody can walk, everybody can pick things up. And I'm a building inspector as part of my other life too, and that's one thing I really get into it on job sites, although I'm not specifically trained to say this is exactly what is, but you know the exact for the inspector you aware.
Speaker 2:And so what I want you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it's just say hey, what about if somebody came in and they had a manual dexterity problem? Or you know, if we're getting arthritis and I can't open this door, I can't lift this window. Try and think outside of just your own abilities, Right?
Speaker 2:And that's the I Boy. Do I have a client? He is originally from Ukraine. He's married to him and his family. They've been living in northern Italy for oh, I don't know 15 years.
Speaker 2:I really respect him. You know he's trying to work on his communication to look more natural on camera. I'm working with him on that. But he is a senior software engineer. He has thought about. You know what I started realizing? We have a lot of people come out here that have disabilities. Disability could be you don't see colors, the colors you see. You know what I'm saying. I'm seeing, I'm privileged. I see these glasses I'm going to wear on the camera. My eye doctor want me to wear them because it protects your eyes.
Speaker 2:It has the protection from that and I never thought he said I started thinking about that Then, when I sent him the information, do you know how much money these people would have disabilities pay? How much billions of dollars? They put their money out there. Now he didn't just do it for that. He did it because he realized that his wife's friend is his visual impairment. That's how he got into that.
Speaker 1:He wanted to develop that for people who have various disabilities in technology. Oh, I mean, talk about that. Right, there is the crux of empathy for something that's not necessarily your own, exactly. And I will tell you, yes, and that is why I've stopped saying things like what if it were your mom or your girlfriend? Why should I have to say that in order for you? You know what I mean when it comes to issues that, for women, are like well, what if it were like I shouldn't have to say that to someone in order?
Speaker 1:to get you to care.
Speaker 2:But you know what? You reminded me of something real quick there that I've noticed and I said maybe you know I don't have time a lot now I guess it's an excuse Of what I think is happening in our culture. I'm talking about here in the United States and probably could be. I've lived in other countries too as well, but a USA thing. I don't know if it's a USA thing, just a human thing. I'm noticing adults, some, a lot of adults and younger. You can't fault children. They're getting it from their parents. It's the inability to think outside yourself and say, into a self-assess yourself. You know, like if, if, if I pissed you off, I would say you know what? I don't think what I'd see it to me. It was right. I need to, I need to work on that. First of all, I all need to apologize. There's a lot of people don't know how to do that. They have no self assessment.
Speaker 2:They don't know how to think outside themselves.
Speaker 1:They're being wrong. Yeah, they're shown that example a lot when it comes to especially people that are what they would somebody would call cancel culture. But it's actually accountability and they're like, yeah, they're like I'm sorry if I maybe did something, like, nah, that's not it, that's not the way.
Speaker 2:I maybe did something.
Speaker 1:Yeah, such a great point, though, it really really is the accountability piece, and you know, unfortunately and I'll go back to this too where we really are kind of going backwards. But to put that business on the highway, her name is Brandy, with an I, Bradley. Okay, she won in HD39 this past year, Eric.
Speaker 2:Brody was running against her.
Speaker 1:She's an absolute moms for liberty, liberty garbage, pale of a human being and I can't toes down on that one to come at me, and I think we should out that kind of thing and be aware of it. So, so okay, yes, so the nineties was the ADA, and then the two thousands, and so again, this is so we're going to I'm 2000,. I'm 35 to 45, you're 45 to 55.
Speaker 2:And I was doing a lot of not only I took a little bit of a sabbatical from teaching and taught doing Reddit. This is funny. Go look into this. What would I? This is funny, looking at this, what I remember doing and I worked for a company for a year. It was called PACE, p-a-c-e group. Now eventually they got bought out by Sylvain Learning. And I was working in Dallas, Texas.
Speaker 2:We had a little small little apartment travel all over the Southeast United States, work for I don't know if it's a name used to name a bank I used to work for I don't know if it's a name used to name a bank I used to work with some banks, went to tech companies doing diversity training. So this is just like going back to what I'm like. Yeah, I did that for a year and then on the sabbatical and then went back to teaching after a year because they were actually being bought out anyway from.
Speaker 1:Sylvan and I still think I had my position at the university because I was adjunct, but I eventually did become full-time, so I feel like we're just your, your career, and I I really I love that we kind of come up with this as like what we were doing in our lives as well. During this time and the 2000s, diversity training programs emerged in workplaces to educate about different cultures. Early training was focused on sexual harassment, unconscious bias and sensitivity to differences. So that makes a lot of sense and same for me too. And that's the one thing about the, for better or worse, the way that we were raised is we were also raised with the ability to just sort of put up with it, because it just is the way it was. You know, the one everybody would talk about, the one guy in the office who would do the uncomfortable hands on the shoulders and you know, and it was a joke because that's just you know, we were keeping ourselves safe. That's what we were taught to just kind of put up with it.
Speaker 2:And you know what I'm going to bring. I'm going to send you and I know you get tired of me sending you some link, if you may have already seen it, and I know you always want to say I can't believe you got off of Facebook and I think I sent you what I said. And I did that intentionally on Facebook to get suspended and I didn't go back.
Speaker 1:Okay.
Speaker 2:Did you shut the gate behind you? You're going to love the video. You were bringing this up. About this, we are getting this culture. This man we call our president want to go back to the grab ass culture. He's beauty. You got a nice ass on you, or? Rub up against you at the copying machine.
Speaker 1:They want to go back to the don't be so sensitive times.
Speaker 2:Yeah, you got a nice ass. Why do you want to?
Speaker 1:be so sensitive about that. Right right, right right, mark.
Speaker 2:Zuckerberg, I'm going to send this to you. He was moaning and groaning about. You know, I grew up with just sisters and I don't see what the big deal of it all. I don't see what the big deal of the. Well, I don't see what the I'm going to send you the video what the big deal about it is. And then I get married and guess what? I have all girls. Now what does that sound?
Speaker 1:like to you. It's gross.
Speaker 2:First of all, this is Mark Zuckerberg saying that you know, I see, when I saw, I'm glad I left you. Yes, with you If you're more than grown and you got billions of dollars and you don't like the fact that the way these women are making men to be a man.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah. I kind of feel like there really is a little bit of payback for him, because I also believe that he has biracial children too, because I believe his wife is Asian.
Speaker 2:I don't know what ethnic group, but she's Asian for sure with ethnic group, but she's asian for sure, right?
Speaker 1:so I mean you know that he's in the fafo, but he's wealthy enough and he's also in bed with the current regime.
Speaker 2:Oh yeah, he was. It was him in in bezos and and whoever else sitting in the inauguration.
Speaker 1:Oh, it was so gross who? Oh god, that was really gross I couldn't, I only wanted to. I only I couldn't watch it but I only wanted to see it.
Speaker 2:You're not going to put his hand on in a Bible. Yeah, and he didn't.
Speaker 1:And he didn't, oh God, and his girlfriend too, who's problematic. It's interesting. I just saw a video yesterday. I really liked this guy. He's a professor and he did these two videos side by side of a woman. The first one was a woman at a bar and she was very stern with this guy, like hey, beat it, you know I. He's like I'm just trying to and she's like, no, I don't, I don't care. And so he said and I got a lot of pushback and it was very. I was a white guy that did this video, so I really liked him a lot. He said I got a lot of pushback for this video because everybody said, well, if she had just been nice, then maybe he would have walked away.
Speaker 1:And then he posts another video of a young woman who started video recording on the beach and she was kind of had a camera here and she was sort of smiling but saying, no, I'm good, you know what I? Just, you know, we want to just be in peace. And then everybody's like well, why is she smiling? Why isn't she more firm? And he's's like and that's my point because it doesn't matter if she's too friendly, right, you know why. Why weren't you, why didn't you stand up to him, if you're very firm and stern, so you know, I think we are at the point too that it is kind of what goes around comes around, it's it's looking for acceptance. Is is not going to be the way either we just got it.
Speaker 2:We we've had one one woman out. Yeah, I'm sorry, people get mad. When I was for Hillary, I wanted her to win. Yeah, look how the media treat it. Look how the media treat it. I actually had a picture in one of my classes. It was. I don't even know if you had moved to Denver. Well, your father was in Denver then. Yeah, that's right 95,.
Speaker 1:yeah, that's right, and she was in.
Speaker 2:Wyoming and they had, you know, when they took a picture from her ass, they just showed her ass and between her, like she had on pants right. Yeah so imagine you're on the stage and somebody is taking a picture of you. They show your ass and your legs, but you don't see your face. I showed that in the class. People were like appalled In my diversity class. I showed that. How many men you've seen treated that?
Speaker 1:way? Sure, I mean, and I've always observed and had my, you know, with Hillary and or with. Was she Secretary of State too?
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, she was a US Senator too, remember I know it, I know it and, irene, I really I did support it. Everybody's got their things that somebody can complain about, but my God, this last one. As far as what's problematic about Dems as well too, we just kind of fall apart when somebody says the wrong thing to us, sometimes as Dems, and it's just it's more going to be standing up of like no, she did a lot of great policies.
Speaker 2:And I bet that must have been interesting for you to really dig into the details. That class, my diversity class and my mass media class was chock full of information. It was interesting. It was an interesting class.
Speaker 1:And guess what?
Speaker 2:You know, and look how now we talk about this DEI, how they trying to turn DEI into a. You know, and I said to myself here we go again, here we go again putting this on Black go again See what black people have done, and then you go and look at the history of this.
Speaker 2:As you're reading this, you're going down here. You start in the 70s, I think you have to 2000. You talk about 10 and today. Yeah, did you see anywhere in your list, mia, where it said black people started the EI? That's what. This is what we're talking about. Here we go.
Speaker 1:And I'll tell you when. The only time somebody would try to disagree with you is when we're coming up on the 2020s, and I know you know what I'm going to say, but I'm going to do the 2010s real quick. So, 2010s, we were what I was 45 to 55, right and I would have been 55 to 60.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm 55 to 60, righthmm. Mm-hmm 55 to 60, right. So businesses 2010s? Businesses recognize the need to mirror the diversity of society within their workforce to remain competitive and successful. So they made it about money. I'm not mad at that. But you know, diversity expands to programs focused on multicultural marketing and then the Me Too movement gains momentum and support for women and allies. The Supreme Court recognizes same-sex in the case of Oberge and Hodges. But to go back to Me Too, real quick, what's always interesting, a lot of people forget oh God, her name just went out of my head. Who started? Here's the query for you Do you know who?
Speaker 2:the Me Too movement actually started with no. Do you remember her name? Let me think. I don't know if I even have some of that in my notes or somewhere.
Speaker 1:I got it when you're ready.
Speaker 2:Yeah, who is it?
Speaker 1:Tarana Burke. Tarana Burke, tarana Burke Her name sounds familiar, she's an activist, and so what's interesting is she had coined that as early as 2006 to raise awareness of the pervasiveness of sexual abuse and assault. Uh, hold on a second, um, uh, and you know just. You know just, basically and in every day. So what was interesting, though, is what happened in 2017 to scooch back forward into the 2010s. Alyssa Milano, who's the actress. You know, white woman, white woman, who's an actress. She did that infamous tweet with the hashtag Me Too. Now, listen, I can't necessarily be mad at it because, listen, it really was very, very helpful, but this is an example of when a movement had been started by an African-American woman that that did get taken over. It did some good, but again, it sort of just erased out anyone that wasn't sort of like what would be considered, I guess, like a higher echelon type of thing. It did a lot of good, but it's always interesting that Toronto.
Speaker 1:Barclays was really really good in that. So 2010s, here we go, or 2020, sorry. So we are five years into it With the social movements like Black Lives Matter and Stop AAPI Hate. In response to violence, there was a renewed focus on addressing social issues. Organizations began to embrace DEI as a holistic approach to aim, promoting diversity and representation. So then, where are we now? At a pivot point? The pendulum has flung hard these past few years, with the backlash spiking in 2022. Would you agree on that?
Speaker 2:Oh yes.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and which is interesting, which is during the Biden administration, but stabilizing in 2024. But I think that's to go back again on the conversation with Democrats that we had. On the last one too. There has been a lot of pendulum swinging where you know, we're over here thinking we're making progress, and there's this underbelly of very disgruntled people that are just quietly seething, and I think that's where we're at too, with people with racism, with misogyny, misogynoir, right there's, I mean, and so we're in a pretty, we're in an interesting time.
Speaker 2:It's scary. It's a scary time we're in. I feel that they I mean here's a group who've been politicizing. I mean, you just read through the history of this, you know of the DEI, and they didn't mention CRT, but-.
Speaker 1:Right the way you see it exactly, and we're gonna because where we said we keep to a time. Can I have you talk quickly about CRT, especially with your education history and education.
Speaker 2:I feel like that's good to say it at this point. I'm going to make it real short. I mean, let's just look at and I'm piggybacking on what you went through, this series of the going back to 1960s, when you were just a five-year-old Not even in elementary school at that point. Then I don't know if you were in kindergarten or whatever at that age.
Speaker 1:I think I had 70s when I started Critical.
Speaker 2:Think about what is critical race theory? Critical race theory, I mean, let me ask you something what do you think about that, the critical race? When I say your perceptual lands as a, as a white woman?
Speaker 1:thank you and I I'm gonna that, I'm, yeah, I'll give my perception of it. It's more things that are part, are part of the systematic problems that are that aren't being, that need to be taught to say you know, this is uh patriot, uh patriarchy and colonialistic thinking is what got us to where we are, and so we need to recognize that it's not just white men, they they've told the story of history right, but there are so many people that we think it's only white men and I'm I'm getting off on a tangent we think it's only like white guys that have done all this stuff. It's mainly because one we couldn't get, most people couldn't get any kind of patents, we weren't legal to do certain things, and so I feel like, uh, the critical race theory is describing what has been?
Speaker 1:whitewashed out of society.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yes, okay, yes, and, and, and I mean it's sort of kind of like they're not just trying to say it's critical. When you, when you say the word critical race theory, I'm seeing the CRT, all of this. Just think about, let's just put this if we want to put it in a bow. Do you surprise? I know you can't be surprised with what you just said, what you just read through. It's no surprise. We're in the situation. Who we got Think who we got as president.
Speaker 2:Because why? That is why we got him. You see what I'm saying. I don't want to say it. We, I didn't vote for him. He is a symptom, right, he is a symptom of this. You see, he came at the right. So look what happened. So he did run for president. He is much worse now than he was when the first time he ran. I didn't vote for him then. He is a symptom of all of this stuff you're talking about.
Speaker 2:Just look at the history here. He came in at the right time. This is one thing, and there's going to be some Democrats that are going to hear this, going to get mad. But these Republicans were a genius in what they've done. They really were in what they've done. Look how they manufactured. They manufactured this. They made it a point and you know what? When you watch, I sent Mia, for folks listening on this, a video. Many of you may have seen it on YouTube. It's free now on YouTube. I bought the DVD, but you can see it free now on YouTube. I sent it to her. You can understand if you look at history with that, with voting rights. This was manufactured to bring Trump. Trump came this second time. He came in at the right time. Now you know it was a joke for him to come in the first time. Then he ran, it was out of office and it set up for all of this stuff.
Speaker 1:He never stopped. The whole time he never stopped.
Speaker 2:That's right. Even when he was out, they were manufacturing. And when you see this video, it's going to all come together. This documentary, it's going to all come together. And the very first person that's speaking, who is the gentleman? White gentleman. He's been arrested a lot. He's the kind of white guy we talked about. There's a great white guy, the actor he's telling. Forget his name. He used to be on that show about the. Was he playing the president of the United States? Oh, yes, You're going to see him talk about it. He had something to do producing it.
Speaker 2:Guess who else produced this, this documentary. The actor what's his name? Oh Lord, he won his first Academy Award a few years ago when he got mauled by that bear, by a grizzly bear. I can't think of that guy's name. I can't think of his name, but he's a very handsome young man. He has something to do with it and his father produced this show. But you're going to see him right off the first two or three minutes introducing this documentary. You're going to watch him right off the first two or three minutes introducing this documentary. You're going to watch this, but go back. We're critical. We've been a critical race theory.
Speaker 1:Yes, you know whitewashing stuff. Is this the Vigilantes movie?
Speaker 2:Yes, okay, you're going to see him in the first two or three minutes. I can't think of his name. Yeah, he's got sons that are actors too. Oh, he's got sons that are actors too. Oh, it's true what. I can't think of his name right off the bat. We got sons that are actors.
Speaker 1:Oh, here he is, I'm just going to show it.
Speaker 2:There you go, martin Sheen, martin Sheen, martin Sheen. Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1:Yeah, cause he was on the the West wing and everybody loved that.
Speaker 2:And then you know, west wing, the West Wing that's right on the West.
Speaker 1:Wing, and he's been somebody who's been a part of history because of the movies that he's made. Yeah, that'll be. This'll be really, really good to see, and I you should add your trigger warning with it too, that you shouldn't watch it if you're having a down day or the whole thing. But you know, here's, here's the. I want to end on a and I want to get your ending thoughts as well too. You know, here's why Because we had affirmative action, head Start, blm, crt, dei. Think about all these things in your right Black people, African-American people, people of color. They did not make these up right. But that responsibility that puts this anger on people like why do I have to change? That's what it totally looks like. So, more than anything, again, like we can watch this documentary every day is an assault on our system of that. However, we have to keep our foot on the gas. Everyone and this is a question I didn't post you before what do you think we, as white people, should be doing?
Speaker 2:Let her rip. Well, what you should be doing I mean, I would say you would be a good example of what white people should be doing, but what you're doing, and it takes courage, it takes courage as a matter of fact. I'm going to tell you that in a little bit, I want you to tell me who you, I know you just say you're going to get tired of me asking who said this.
Speaker 2:She's got her book Success was not final and the failure is not fatal. It's courage that matters. That's what you're doing right now and that is what you need to. Who do you think said that? And I'm going to give it. It's not an American that say it that.
Speaker 1:Male or female Male?
Speaker 2:Still alive. I'm going to give you another hint from the United Kingdom.
Speaker 1:In the UK. Can you say it one more time, okay?
Speaker 2:Success is not final and the failure is not fatal. It's courage that matters.
Speaker 1:Man, my menopause brain is blank.
Speaker 2:I'm going to give you another hint. There was a movie they made about him how many years ago, and the guy, the gentleman that played Winston Churchill, was awesome. I've got, I said, watch the Winston Churchill movie. And it's Winston Churchill. With goosebumps With that actor that played him the British actor. That's what Winston Churchill with. Goosebumps with that actor that played him, the British actor. That's what Winston Churchill said that.
Speaker 2:And so the answer would be you know what? The answer that I know the long and short of it is this you are an example of how I'm not telling them to be me a boss, but to have some courage, whatever that looks like. Yeah, thank you. We're all human beings. There are literally people that look some white, some white people. There's some black people that feel that we're not. We're not human beings, we're like certain kinds of animal, we're another species. The three fifths.
Speaker 1:Exactly Right.
Speaker 2:And look that up, y'all.
Speaker 1:And I have a. I have a. One of my episodes with Candace Bailey is here on the podcast where we talked about that. This was about two years ago. Thank you for that, and I do think that, as white people, it's the conversations we need to be having that are not out in the public. It's calling people out. Hey, don't say that. Hey, why would you feel that way? Why, you know. You know, think about somebody else's experience beyond your own and do call them in. As my one friend says, you need to call in your ashy cousins.
Speaker 2:Exactly. You know, Mia, I know we're getting problematic, but if you probably look at, this is key. Read the end of that document that you went through, those which you talked about. In summary, while the initial groundwork for modern DEI was and they go late she gives a great conclusion about that. If you see that, the very last part of what she says on that. Where is DEI headed?
Speaker 1:Yeah, where we're headed Under where we're headed.
Speaker 2:We don't talk about it as pivoting, but there's some good things in there that you still think and I'm seeing this myself that DEI is big globally. I won't mention the client on here. The client I work with right now is a huge I'm not going to name them with one of their people that's in there and their CEO has said I won't give a name to the company because it's a big, global company. The CEO already said okay, we're going to change the wording, but it is DEI.
Speaker 1:We're going to change. That's right and I have heard that too. No, I've heard it from another woman that I know in construction who's doing a lot in leadership and they have programs they have felt aligned with changing of some of the wording so they don't feel like they're taking the message away and that's a great suggestion. I'll read this real quick when is DEI headed. While I do not have a magic ball or magic wand or crystal ball, having spent 10 years in the DEI industry, I believe it will survive the backlash, political polarization and legal challenges even in the next presidency.
Speaker 1:The Me Too and Black Lives Matter movements peaked during Trump's first presidency. Sadly, the DEI backlash and I mentioned that occurred under Biden. It says Fortune 500 companies doing DEI work for years know that they have an inclusion problem. Their stakeholders expect them to continue the work and they will continue to invest in ERGs, which I was saying was employee resource groups, right, inclusive leadership and allyship training. Even if the term this is it, this is what you're saying, even if the term DEI shifts to inclusion, blionging or culture, the work remains the same. Language shifts over time. Let's be open to shifting as the political and social context shifts Boom.
Speaker 2:That's wonderful. There, it is right there. There it is there, it is right there. That is it right there. It's going to change, but globally it is growing. And then you can read on a little bit, but I don't know if it's in that one. It's another article I sent you about. In the billions of dollars it talks about from the business I know we run. According to the business wire, dei is projected to experience a significant growth with the globe. That's the other article. Global market estimated at $24.4 billion by 2030. Yep, yep, and they call it the CAGR, the compound annual growth rate of approximately 12.6% from 2022 value. That was $9.4 billion.
Speaker 2:That's the other article I sent. You can read that on your own.
Speaker 1:I love it. We're going to close out, but I will say that what's so encouraging that that information is so important in the face of the oligarchy and the bro-ligarchy that's going on. That that's all we're hearing about because of what's being put out there in the news. That's the kind of news we need to pay attention to.
Speaker 2:There you go that is All right.
Speaker 1:You see us on the next episode. It'll be, good. Thank you for joining us everybody. Bye, nia. Hey, thanks for tuning in. You can check out the show notes and guest links at shitwedontalkaboutpodcastcom. If you like this episode, please subscribe and give it a like or leave a review, especially if it's a good one. See you next time. Bye.