Shit We Don't Talk About
Shit We Don’t Talk About is the podcast that takes on topics we should be talking about more often and openly. Guests and topics will be incredibly diverse, sometimes painful, sometimes joyful but all things we need to talk about candidly to keep us all informed and connected. Some topics may be triggering so please listen with care.
Shit We Don't Talk About
Ep. 95 - Man Shit: Redefining Masculinity in a Divided World - Dr. Karen Rayne & Corbin Knight-Dixon
What happens when men realize the promises of traditional masculinity—power, wealth, dominance—are either unattainable or ultimately unsatisfying? This groundbreaking conversation with sex educators Dr. Karen Rayne and Corbin Knight-Dixon reveals the hidden grief process many men experience when confronting these realities.
Twenty years into their work in sexuality education, our guests have witnessed seismic shifts in how masculinity functions in society. While much public discourse focuses on "toxic masculinity," they argue this framing misses something crucial: the profound grief and isolation many men feel when navigating their gender identity in today's world. This grief, often unacknowledged and unprocessed, drives many young men toward communities that offer simple answers and validation—from online forums to religious groups to political movements promising a return to traditional gender roles.
Dr. Rayne shares a fascinating story about working with middle school boys who had been disciplined for sexist behavior. When she asked them to draw what masculinity meant to them, one drew Donald Trump, explaining he represented power and wealth. When she gently unpacked Trump's problematic statements about women, the boy was genuinely shocked and immediately rejected that model. This illuminating moment shows how rarely adults engage young men in thoughtful conversations about gender.
Throughout our discussion, one theme emerges repeatedly: the desperate need for kindness in our approach to masculinity. "Finding the way to listen from the quiet parts of your own self to the quiet parts of someone else, that's what we really need more of," Dr. Rayne explains. Rather than shaming men or using language that alienates them, our guests advocate for creating spaces where vulnerability is welcomed and grief can be processed.
Despite the challenging political climate, both experts express optimism about the future of masculinity. They're seeing more young men show up in their classes, asking thoughtful questions and engaging in new ways. "We are seeing the future of masculinity now," Corbin notes. "It's not hypothetical, we're practicing it."
Want to learn more about creating healthier models of masculinity? Visit unhushed.org and corbinknightdixon.com to explore resources and educational materials.
More about our guests:
Dr. Karen Rayne has been working in education for the past two decades with an expertise in sexuality education across the lifespan. She is the cofounder of UN|HUSHED, where she writes and edits books and lifespan comprehensive sexuality curricula, trains sexuality educators, and builds collaborative coalitions. She is also an Assistant Professor of Instruction at The University of Texas. Karen has worked with local, national, and international organizations. Oh and she's written a lot of books..like a LOT - and they are amazing! I suggest searching on Bookshop.org to find her work.
Corbin Knight-Dixon (he/him), MS, is a facilitator and learning specialist focused on anti-violence, sexuality education, LGBTQ+ health, and anti-racist health equity. His work centers on reimagining masculinity, driving systems change, and building programs that strengthen community relationships and collective care.
Find Mia On Social Media here.
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Hey, welcome to the latest episode of Shit. We Don't Talk About the podcast that takes on topics that need more open and honest discussion, which means some of these topics are triggering. So please take care when listening and I'll always give you a trigger warning. For instance, here's one Every episode contains swear words. You've been warned. Make sure to check out the show notes, which include an accessibility transcript of the podcast and all of the links for our guests at shitwedonttalkaboutpodcastcom.
Mia Voss:Mia Voss. In this episode we have one of my favorite guests, corbin Knight-Dixon, and this time he brought a friend, dr Karen Rain. She's the co-founder of Unhushed, an organization I definitely want you to check out. I think we'll just call this episode man Shit and Masculinity information for men and everyone who loves them. Tune in, it gets good. Here we go.
Mia Voss:Hi everybody. I have a very full house here. I have a fun threesome going on. I just said before I hit record because I'm inappropriate and you know that, anywho, I'm Mia Voss. I'm your host today. Well, every day I'm blonde. I'm not wearing glasses today, 60 year old white woman in menopause, but I got my head and flesh is under control. So yay me. Today I've got like a little green dress on. I also want to point out I've got my pride cowboy hat here in the background that I probably still wear just to piss people off. There you go. I have a returning guest and then a new guest, so Corbin is back in the house and I have, I think, at least three episodes with Corbin. I'm going to put the links to that in the show notes Corbin, hi, honey, hi so good to see you.
Mia Voss:It's wonderful to see you. We were just talking about in the green room that we have not seen each other or been on a call since the election. Knife and heart, yeah knife and heart, and I'm sure you experience it every day. I have at least a two to five minute period when I just do that. What if, like, driving around town, I see some old Harris Wall signs, you know, and I'm like, anyway, I'm sure you're feeling that, give us your identifiers real quick.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Well, so good to see you. Corbin Knight, dixon I use he him pronouns. I'm here in Buffalo, new York. I'm a white man, 35 years old, I'm wearing glasses, a blue polo. I'm in my living room with a bookshelf behind me, some great books, and one of my favorite things that people can't see is I have a phallic bottle opener that I got in Greece that sneaks up on people when they come to the bookshelf, looking at like Kurt Vonnegut, and they're like is this a penis? Like what? What's going on here, so appropriate for our conversation today on masculinity? Going on here, so appropriate for our conversation today on masculinity.
Mia Voss:I have a fridge magnet that sits on the side of my desk that, like Mr man here, is also phallic, right, nana. It is shocking to some people and I'm absolutely here for that. And then we have a guest. Today we have Karen. Karen, I just forgot your last name.
Dr. Karen Rayne:I know and I didn't put it in. I'm so sorry, rain, my last name is Rain.
Mia Voss:Welcome to the show.
Dr. Karen Rayne:I'm excited to have you two tag team this topic today, so give us your identifiers. Yeah, hi, I am Dr Karen Rain. I am a white woman in my forties perimenopausal, so we could definitely just like go all out on those conversations any day. You know loving that, and I am sitting here in very hot and sunny Austin Texas packing up actually, so I have a fairly blank space around me, no fun sex things to show you, which is very unusual for me, like I always have fun sex things with so many stories behind them.
Dr. Karen Rayne:My favorite is probably my textbook. That's like a human sexuality college textbook with a bullet in it. I had a student at the college level who was in the military and he had to go down range and he took his textbook with him to study for the test, which I felt like was above and beyond the call of duty. I was like leave it, just go, and he was like no, no, no, I really want to study. So he shoved it in finally and when he got back he emailed me and he was like okay, I'm back, I can take the test now. We came under fire and my textbook stopped the bullet and probably saved my life.
Mia Voss:Oh, my God, okay, I don't even need a visual for that. That's such an amazing story Because y'all sex ed saves lives.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Sex ed saves lives.
Mia Voss:And here's proof. Yeah, oh, my God. All right, that is an excellent start to this conversation and I put it in the show notes. But Corbin and Dr Karen have been really working in the field of sex education sexuality. Can you briefly get into that for us, because we'll have that in the show notes, but a little bit of both of your backgrounds and then the work you've been doing together, and then we're going to dive into this really important topic.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Sure, I. You know I'm very bad at introducing myself, mia, you should know that just from the beginning. So I have a PhD in educational psychology. I've been working in sex education for more than 20 years in a bunch of different ways and I met corbin through that work with the national sex ed conference, um, which was so much fun in the years when we did it together and um, creating really interesting innovative educational content around how to be kinder, better people, uh, in relationships, was kind of my passion and I mean I say was it? I would say it still is, it's just much harder to do now.
Mia Voss:Oh honey, I think I must feel like we can just hang up the call. It's much harder to do now, like in in scene. Right it is. And I did kind of trick you into introducing yourself because I realize, even though it's in the beginning, I love the swirl between the two of you, the work that you've been doing and the concerted work that you've been doing. Of course, it's hard to introduce yourself because you're so fucking cool, like how do you encapsulate that? So, corbin, follow up that one, corbin follow up that one.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I feel like I always and now that I've been on three or four times, I think my introduction is always different. But yeah, I've been working in sex ed. I mean, really I consider that my home when I talk about my work and I think, Karen, maybe you relate to this, I don't know, but I shift homes. Sometimes I feel like I do public health, Sometimes I do anti-violence, and so I can have a different introduction. But my home was sex ed and I started. I'm 35 now. I started when I was 15 as a peer educator, teaching other young people in adolescence about sexuality and sexual health, so they got to learn from their peers. I'm also a survivor of sexual violence and was doing advocacy around working with other young men talking to other young men about hey, we experienced violence and what does that look like?
Corbin Knight-Dixon:And here's someone from someone else that shares similar stories. But yeah, karen and I got introduced I want to say 2012 or 2013. And in the last year, karen reached out saying and in the last year, karen reached out saying I want to do more work on thinking about sexuality, sexuality education and health, specifically as it relates to men and young men. And that just brought us back together, although we've kind of weaved in and out of our professional worlds for 12, 13 years now. So it's so great to be able to work with her on this around an issue that I think we're going to get into like we feel is so important. If I was to name one of the most important issues that I think our field and people that care about people work could work on, I think it's addressing issues related to masculinity and working with men.
Mia Voss:And so I'm excited to have this conversation with both of you and a couple of things I was thinking about when you're saying that. So when you're talking about when you really started this work, so that is you're 35, you're 15, so 20 years ago. So we're talking the early aughts, right, and even then it feels like it should have been a lot more progressive. Nope, right For me when I think 20 years ago, I think 1985. That's what you get when you're 60. You're like what? And now I got to go take a nap.
Mia Voss:But then the other piece too, and I remember you talking to me about this last year when you started this work. So you began this work, about this last year when you started this work. So you began this work before this current regime and so you felt a sense of urgency, probably knowing as much as we were saying before we started recording a lot of wishful thinking. We worked so hard If you remember y'all Corbyn came on the show quite a bit when we were talking about voter registration, voter rights, the importance of voting. So now I mean because I almost feel like it's devolved at such an accelerated rate, but you all talk about that too. I know we're going to get into a little bit of the history when we started to dive downhill, as if it was ever great when it comes to masculinity, if it was ever great when it comes to masculinity, yeah, and I would.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I would say and, karen, I'm interested in your opinion that even if we started working around, you know, having a little bit more hope for the current administration, things have been bad, and I don't I don't think that I want to pretend that issues related to masculinity or other things related to the work that we do. You know Trump was elected in 2016. How bad things have been, not just related to masculinity, but related to racism, related to dominant culture things and shifts that we were seeing. So you know you mentioned 2005 when I started. You know I was really hopeful and was hearing stories about how bad things were, how much we can improve, hearing from advocates that were talking pre-Roe, you know pre -Roe v Wade about. You know we could go back and sure enough we did, and so I think that you know, even if we started having some optimism, make no mistake that I don't think that we've been very clear that the landscape needs work and needs TLC.
Dr. Karen Rayne:And I think the kind of work that needs has the thing that has that I see, is really having shifted. So when we look at you know a history of, you know primarily a patriarchal culture which we've had for hundreds of years I mean we can, if not thousands, like we can readily say that's been around for a very long time and that's been problematic in lots of ways, right and harmful to men in lots of ways. In addition to you know, all the other people who were not men around them. And then we look at kind of the more recent decades and you know we can start talking about the ways that the patriarchy shifted. You know we can kind of pick a bunch of different potential points.
Dr. Karen Rayne:I think an interesting one is the world wars in the last century and the ways that the you know, men left and women worked and then when men came back, like there was a different dynamic.
Dr. Karen Rayne:We can also look at like the advent of machinery in the homes that allowed women to have much more freedom of motion. You know everything from like a dishwasher and a laundry machine to a refrigerator and a bread maker. You know, like all these ways that people just got more freedom from literal home care, you know. Or we can talk about the 70s and Mia, you were mentioning something about. You know the ways that the 70s and like ideas around manhood we're shifting at that point to, you know, we can look at. We can look at Reagan, we can look at Bush, like we can look at lots of ways that you know moments in history where things have changed. And I think that, yeah, if we're looking at when Trump was elected and I have a very clear idea on exactly how long it has been, because my youngest child was born on the last day of the Obama administration Wow, and so she is exactly that many years old.
Mia Voss:Holy shit, what a legacy yeah.
Dr. Karen Rayne:People are like why aren't you out marching? And I'm like I'm a baby, yeah, no marching, yeah, no marching, um, and and it's. But throughout all of it, I think that one of the hallmarks that we can look to is the ways that gender has caused pain and the ways that, as humans, we have not typically responded to the pain caused by gender with kindness, whether that, and from a bunch of different perspectives. Right, I don't think that there is a political party or a social network that I can say oh yeah, they respond to all genders and gender-based issues with kindness, and that includes men and masculinity.
Mia Voss:To me. I'm thinking the only party group that I could point to would perhaps be indigenous Indigenous people, that they at least which again was probably the last time it was at least matriarchal was probably when our country was more the actual, you know the original people here, and I think it has been. I agree, I mean thousands of thousands, thousands of years. And, just as an aside, I've been sitting in this like really deep comprehension finally of like just how awful late stage capitalism is and lends itself to all of this, because it does come down to power and money is power as well too. I'm going to throw a wrench into the conversation just for a second and your work, because, as you're talking about this, I feel like there's also a distinction in race when it comes to masculinity. Where are you at with that? And I don't want to derail the conversation too much, but that was something that just jumped out for me, that you have to look at it from the way that different races go, or, you know, look at masculinity.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:We have to talk about how race plays a role in masculinity. I think earlier conversations plays a role in masculinity. I think earlier conversations and this was maybe like beginning stages of COVID and a lot of emergence of BLM, which is again not new you know, karen, I remember a conference that we had in 2013 that we had to change the program of the conference because of a murder of a Black man, and so we literally changed the program of a national conference with hundreds and hundreds of people because we said we need to be responsive to this moment. And so I think, when we talk about not being surprised, I think the racial justice foundations and what we've seen in racism make it very clear of what story we're seeing, again with masculinity.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:So anyway in early COVID I started talking to parents about raising young white men in particular, thinking about the intersection of power and privilege and what does that mean for raising folks. And when.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I hear from a lot of parents. I'll be very candid and my identity has something to do with that as a white man. Many parents reach out and say I'm concerned that I have a young boy and I'm concerned about raising a socially conscious, responsible, young white man and I don't want him to end up you said we can pass on here I don't want him to grow up and not care about people. I'm really, yeah, ethnic groups. As a violence preventionist, again, I feel like I wear some different hats. I am particularly interested in white men being the folks that cause the most harm in our society. And what does it mean for programs and for thinking to approach with kindness young white men and boys and parents to support them and say what do you need? What are we missing? Because we know of most mass murders, terrorism, domestic terrorism. It's very clear what the data and what we see in the news that young white men are often the portrait that we see and that's based on reality.
Mia Voss:It's really true, but when you think about man do, they have a great PR game, though, because the world still thinks that everybody is, it's everybody else but the white guy, and when you go back to like Ted Bundy and all these different people, it's like the, the, the, the belief, the instant belief, and even that when you see photos that are in the news, the way they'll portray as as a young man, as a right or a child, still when it's a white kid, um, as opposed to it's a black man, and it's still like a 13 or 14 year old child. So there's a pretty strong PR game out there, for promoting white men is unproblematic. But there also is a lot of backlash, and I'll be honest, I know I've contributed to it as well. I mean, my favorite phrase is like oh Jesus Christ, another fucking fail forward. Mediocre white guy. I'm not very nice about it.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Well, I think that's the thing to like recall, right? Is that? Yes, the media has this total racket, right? Perception is, you know, king. Social media is entirely unhinged and when we're looking at actual young white men, their lived experience is not that perception of what the news gives to young white men who have done terrible things right. So I think the lived experience is in fact really different, because a lot of young men are feeling very attacked and they've been saying that for a long time and we haven't been listening.
Mia Voss:Can I bring up the topic, and we don't have this in our notes, but I'm sure you want to address the topic of, like the incel, the advent of the incel of I don't know culture.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Oh, yeah, look, and it was gosh 2018, maybe it was definitely pre COVID. I called a colleague who I was writing a curriculum with and I was like I need you to write an activity that will prevent the incels of the future. Amazing activity that's like a choose your own adventure with, like friend zoning as its central piece and helping you know middle schoolers learn how to accept rejection and not have it be a person like a reflection of their personality or their you know who they are as an individual and to accept that, first of all, friendship is a valuable relationship and also that rejection is not a comment on your value. And I think it was, you know, revolutionary at the time and I think it's still revolutionary.
Mia Voss:Oh gosh, it's, it's needed so much. And, warren, I want to tell you a quick experience I had in a conversation the other day speaking to an acquaintance of mine and she and she, her son, is 20 and he was raised here in Colorado very progressive. Two moms and I was. It was such an interesting conversation to hear. They're on the, they're on the upswing of it, but they had a really struggle about that time, by the way, of her son that's raised in this blue progressive town state home and they really struggled with him falling down that Joe Rogan rabbit hole. He's come out from it. But it was interesting to hear that Like even in that, you know, I mean you can't get more of, like the place that you should not be falling for that. I thought that was really interesting.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Well, and that's been a part of some of the conversations that Karen and I have been having with each other, with our colleagues, with parents, and Karen, you asked me this question. It's like what are they doing, what are they offering that is so attractive that young men are not getting elsewhere? And it's community, it's acceptance, it's affirmation. You know, I turned to Reddit from time to time. There was recently Joe Rogan was talking about walking back his endorsement of Trump, but it was really interesting.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Just following these threads of you know that they're being celebrated, they're being told you're normal, the things that we should be doing, and I say we talking about our friends, family and my colleagues. How do we reframe our work to say you are welcome, karen. Exactly what you said Rejection is normal. You're going to do things in life, you're going to ask people for things and you're going to be told no and it's going to be hard. So let's talk about how you build up that emotional resilience, that emotional intelligence. But, like you said, you've been talking about it for seven years, you know, and it's still not something that's a standard in social, emotional learning to teach, and so, of course, we're going to have this emergence and it's still very alive and well. There's still a lot of isolation. There's still a lot of just like this apathy, the situationships that we're seeing, that people are kind of withdrawn towards more emotional relationships. Young men are more withdrawn towards emotional relationships because they're saying it's not worth it. It's not worth it. I can get those kinds of connections elsewhere.
Mia Voss:The camaraderie.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I think the camaraderie I don't know if you what you would add, karen I think the camaraderie, I think sometimes the intimacy, I think sometimes the connections, and it's easier with your in-group versus people that have difference than you in some cases.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Yeah, and I think that if we're looking at that trend of fewer relationships, be they romantic or sexual, we're seeing a global trend that's not gendered right. We're seeing a global trend where all people are more likely to reject sexual and romantic connection. I'm also noticing that, mia, are we still? Are we still good? Can we still?
Dr. Karen Rayne:hear us yes yes, we are Sorry, we are sorry, no, it's okay, you just froze for a second. I wanted to just check in, um. So you know, if we look at when I started teaching at the college level, it was 2007 and there was a trend that had already gotten started where young people in Japan were having fewer relationships and fewer babies, less sex, and people in Japan were starting to freak out about it. You know, now we can see that this is a global trend, right, lots of other countries are following suit and the United States, I would say, started like having their like kind of freak out emotional reaction to this reality, maybe 10 or 12 years ago, where it was clear that United States was following in Japan's footsteps, which was clear that was going to happen in 2005. Like, I was not surprised to watch that happen.
Dr. Karen Rayne:But the reasons why are very gendered, right, everybody is stepping back from relationships as a whole, but why they are doing so is a highly gendered experience, I think, you know.
Dr. Karen Rayne:And if we look to South Korea, for example, and there are three Bs, what, and I think, but it's the Bs in Hangul, not English, but it's like no babies, no boyfriends and no sex. And so the young there's this movement that is definitely here also, where young women are saying they're not going to do any of those things on principle, and young men and we're talking very heterosexist terminology here, very broad, very cis focused, very heterosexist. I just want to throw that out there as an acknowledgement and I think that young men are responding like well, we don't want what you've got anyway. You know we can get that through our incel Reddit groups. Or you know we can get sex through porn. Sex through porn. We can have community through religion. One of the things that Corbin and I have talked about is the increase in men, and especially young men, leaning into religion for the first time, actually ever in higher rates, which is fascinating.
Mia Voss:Do you find that problematic? That scares the shit out of me when I hear that.
Dr. Karen Rayne:I mean, it all depends on the religion, doesn't it?
Mia Voss:Okay, yeah, I mean, if you listen to my podcast, you know that I'm like are you a Dolly Parton Christian or are you a problematic Christian?
Dr. Karen Rayne:And it's spelled with a K, that's how I dumb it down, but yeah, Right, but we also have non-Christian denominations, right. So there's people who aren't Christian at all and and there's lots of folks who have really good Christian values that are based in, you know, kindness and love, and there's lots of people who have Christian values, and I've used big air quotes around the word Christian. I think the saying starts with a K is a great way to say it. We're not bringing a foundation of love, and so if I see young men moving towards you know, a religion that holds kindness and authenticity and you know some of the more beautiful elements of religion, I can be a fan of that. You know that's not what I'm really seeing. Those are not the religious communities they're moving towards for the most part, which is the same, but I actually love talking about religion and its intersection with sexuality, and I find it to be. You know I'm from.
Mia Voss:Texas.
Dr. Karen Rayne:That's awesome.
Mia Voss:That sounds like an oxymoron and I'm here for it. You know what I mean. Oh my gosh, let's do a whole show on that. Karen, I'm in. Oh my God, we'll do one perimenopause menopause, which, by the way, is why I started this podcast. Shit we Don't Talk About because I go to the doctor. I'm like, well, this is some shit we don't talk about. This is a while ago, but I, oh I find that so interesting because it and the reason why I balked at it initially when you even said that, is because religion, I mean talk about toxic masculinity. It can just be a hotbed and a you know, you seed in so many different things.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Oh God, sorry my little my, my own trauma is coming through. Yeah, religion is so real, absolutely, absolutely, you know, and I think that religion, like sex, is one of those things that can span from really really good to really really bad.
Mia Voss:Yeah, I just. I don't know many that I'm thinking are really great right now. I just name me a few, but I think it's the practice of it.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Corbin, jump in yeah to seven Corbin jump in.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Yeah, well, I'm an expert on religion, but I also grew up in the, the Texas Bible Belt.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Yeah, and I was sharing recently about some some I wouldn't call it religious trauma, but just, I grew up as an agnostic in Texas and it was very common for my friends to try and trick me into getting baptized, um, but, but what I, what I wanted to say is I think, with religion too, masculinity and whiteness there was a time and I'm not going to get too out of my depth here but there was a time that, politically, there was a realization that we could, or that the white Christian movement could, weaponize religion as a tool for power and domination, and that very much came into American politics I want to say the 70s in particular and as we saw Reagan come into office, it grew and grew and we're very much seeing it, as we're talking or looking at Project 2025, coming into real action.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:So this is why you know, folks like Karen and I, we can't talk about any issue without talking about intersectionality, that we can't look at issues isolated. So you know we're talking about masculinity. Of course, this other shit is a key player in what it means as we're talking about one issue, you can't divorce it from talking about race, talking about religion, talking about sexual orientation, gender, et cetera.
Mia Voss:Such a great reminder. I appreciate that, and I think people do forget about that. They just kind of go one track, and that's why I even brought up we can speak about masculinity with race as well too. I would say when you just said historically I think it started with religion and weaponized religion and then abortion, because that is what's keeping, like they were figuring out, okay, well, let's go after this, because we're losing our power with women over women, I should say Right, yeah, that definitely was a loud one. I'm going to jump in here because I love the questions that you post too. So why does man shit feel so loud and extreme in public? And I think we've touched on this a little bit, but I love this encapsulated question why does man shit feel so loud and extreme in public life right now, and what do people actually want instead?
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I think we've said a lot of it already, but I think right now in 2025, that we're seeing people are having real reactions to what they're seeing politically and in dominant media and culture With Trump, with other figures and we can talk about some of the surveys and things that we've done too but people naming things like Joe Rogan, who you mentioned, and other Charlie Kirk, jordan Peterson, prominent quote unquote either power figures or thinkers like Jordan Peterson, I think, has been a celebrated thinker in some spaces and I would challenge that They've been celebrated in a way that they're promising something to men. That feels to me like a little bit like a myth. And, karen, I wonder if I love your story about how you've worked with young men and their reaction to Trump, to Musk. I'll just share quickly.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Maybe I've said this on your podcast before, mia, I'm getting way less comments, by the way about looking like Elon Musk since he's gone out of the federal government and is no longer with Doge. But I was doing my own case study almost around people you know talking, and what they would say when they were commenting to me around Elon Musk is that there was such attraction it was mostly men there was such attraction to his power and his money and I think that in the current moment, more than I've seen since I've been alive, the unabashed promise of power, sex and money that the men that we're seeing dominate a lot of politics and culture, white men in particular, is very persuasive. It's very persuasive and I think young men are super attracted to gaining what they are promising.
Mia Voss:And I'll just jump in on that real quick, just on Elon, and then Karen jump in on that too. But the interesting thing about him I mean talk about PR spin of what I mean this guy, he got the money from his family. None of the technology was his. Do you know what I mean? Like even I bought into that shit until I don't know five or six years ago. I was like, wait a second, guys. All this guy did was buy this stuff, right, and so it was really an interesting package that people just love to buy into.
Dr. Karen Rayne:And jump in on that, karen message that people just love to buy into and jump in on that, karen. Well, the story that I am currently like, very of the moment, like kind of watching with a little bit of popcorn, is Trump realizing that Vladimir Putin's promise of power, sex and money is maybe not authentic, right? And I feel like that's this thing that I'm kind of watching slowly roll out. It's my interpretation, shall we say, of Trump suddenly falling out of love with Putin. That's so juicy.
Mia Voss:Right, Like when you think about it. I mean, if the world weren't on fire, this would be a really, really entertaining Netflix binge show.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Well, I mean, we have the trump elon, you know midnight tweet fest from a few weeks ago.
Mia Voss:That was also very amazing, um yeah, yeah, it, it definitely is, and I wanted to.
Mia Voss:When you mentioned those different uh characters and that's really what I consider a lot of these fuckers, um, I, I was. If I was at a bar last night with this friend of mine who's about 30 years younger and I I'd had a few, so I really got on my high horse ted talk platform and I, just because I'm old enough to remember joe rogan from uh. There used to be a show called talk radio that he was on. This was 25 years ago and then he got on I think that's what it was called. It was a little sitcom, and then he got on Fear Factor and then you watch this build and all of a sudden, this guy's got this huge platform and fuck Spotify. I mean, because I think they're there to blame for the power that he was given and I think also you may want to touch on this of what happened during the pandemic that gave a lot of this audience, because, corbin, even I do remember attending your Zoom call back in 2020.
Dr. Karen Rayne:And I think, all of a sudden, it was just the hotbed for a lot of these people to be front row of audience, of these guys row of audience of these guys, yeah, and I think that I think that the pandemic is a really interesting, you know kind of like moment to look into and I think that the internet is also a really useful moment to look into broadly. You know, I have actually, you know, I am not of the world that is like the internet is evil. You know, I love the internet. I think there's a lot of good things from it. You know, I don't hate cell phones. Um, I'm not in any way a luddite, you know like. I mean, none of these things are my deal.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Um, and I'm also not one that really likes books that like hates on the teenagers. I, the books that hate on the teenagers I am not a fan of. I, you know, broadly, do not like them. And I feel like the Anxious Generation, which came out last year, is a uniquely skilled assessment of the situation that we are currently in. I don't know, have either of you read the Anxious Generation?
Dr. Karen Rayne:No, it sounds so interesting and spot on, it needs to be on your list, because I think that it also speaks to this issue and what it really says that the internet does for, again, broadly speaking, very cisnormative, as most research is, and so it's a very research-based book, which is one of the things I love about it. Graphs are amazing. They really tell a story in the way that, like us, nerdy academics just love, uh, and it talks about the ways that social media harms girls and, uh, internet gaming harms boys. Um, wow, really powerful story, ways that are easily grasped, easily understood, understandable, and I think that it really does a nice job of that Because, yeah, the young people are hurting and we need to acknowledge that. That is, in fact, the case, whether we want it to be the case, obviously we don't but we have a generation of young people who have, and really so. My youngest is eight, but my oldest are 20 and 24. And so they were kind of this guinea pig generation, where they were given phones way too young, where they're given social media accounts way too young, and now we have all the research to see the ways that that harmed them actively, right, and the way that cigarettes harm people. You know, social media harms people, and we're finally getting wrapping our heads around that.
Dr. Karen Rayne:But in the story that Corbin was talking about, I was working with a group of young men. They were in seventh grade and they, you know, they went to a private school, and so there had been some sorts of I don't know sexism, maybe texting some pictures, not of them but of other people. There was maybe conversations that were based on things that you know terrible. People had said like it was just, like it was a little I felt, like unclear, but what the school had done was they had expelled several of the boys and suspended a bunch more of them, and the girls had had no retribution at all. And so there was like this issue with the school for sure, um, but the boys families brought me in and asked me like will you do some work with our boys? Like clearly they need some support, like the school, issues aside, are struggling. And so one of the things I did with them was I sat them all down and I was like, okay, let's. And we had big pieces of huge pieces of butcher paper rolled out on the floor and a bunch of art supplies, and I was like, just draw masculinity for me, um, and so they did. They just drew all kinds of things.
Dr. Karen Rayne:And then we started like piecing it out and talking about, and one, one of them had drawn Donald Trump, and this was during the Biden administration. And so I was like, tell me more about it. Like, why did you draw Donald Trump? And you know he was like, oh well, you know he's a lot of money, a lot of power, and so that's like masculinity. And I was like, ok, well, let's dig into that. Let me tell you some of the other pieces about him that I know.
Dr. Karen Rayne:And so we talked about Grabbed Him by the Pussy. We talked about, you know, some of you know the pictures of him and sexual vibes with, you know, 13 and 14 year olds, like the same age as they were girls, and they were like oh, that's terrible. And like drew a big X over him and was like, no, I had no idea. And you know this particular young man came from a very politically savvy family. Like there's no way that his parents were unaware of these problems and he just hadn't internalized it. He didn't know, and my guess is because his parents didn't talk about politics with him.
Mia Voss:Wow, that kind of scares the shit out of me, karen, you know what I mean. Like to hear that, like even it's kind of like the story that I told of somebody that that has you know the son that would be. You know he's set up for understanding and you know feeling that, but it I think it goes back to what you were both talking about too, that isolation of that as well too, and they're not even allowed to be heart-centered or emotionally intelligent. You know, it's like we got to make it cool again and I don't know how, for a first time. I don't know.
Dr. Karen Rayne:One of the things that Corbin has said in the course of our work together. That really struck me and I will say I've said it to many people since then and I have actually like ended up stopping and chatting with someone at the grocery store and was like, have you considered the way that masculinity work is actually Greek work? And she was talking about her son, who sometimes just said real asshole things. He's 18. And she was like and I just yeah, I just like get on him. And I'm like have you considered the fact that maybe that's not the best approach, like maybe he is going through a thing and that going through a thing is making him say an asshole thing, but you need to help him process his grief rather than yelling at him. And, corbin, would you like to just speak to that? I think.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:It was a powerful realization in our work together, karen, but and it's I have to do- this, hey, corbin, your, your mic is a little.
Mia Voss:Do you hear that too, karen? It's like a little tinny. Okay, keep talking, honey, let's try again Any better.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Hold on, let me.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Is it something like touching your computer?
Corbin Knight-Dixon:No, nothing's changed. Hold on.
Mia Voss:Listen, bitches. Mercury is almost in retrograde again. God damn it, I'm glitchy. Corbin's mic is off, and that's the first time it's been like that, honey, since then. So no worries, and no, I'm not editing this, people, you need to hear the real deal.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Any better, or is it doing the same thing?
Mia Voss:I think it's doing the same thing. Can you switch it to your computer? And I'm going to hold on as much as my menopausal brain can to what we're going to have?
Dr. Karen Rayne:Yeah, Do you have like headphones or something Corbin I can?
Mia Voss:Oh, that's better.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:That's better Okay.
Mia Voss:Yep, there we go.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Okay, so yeah, we're now I don't remember what we were talking about, but I bet you do. It was such a good Passover at Karen too. It was a perfect layup of talking about grief and masculinity. No, I think of course we have to. If we're doing this work, we have to do introspection, and I was doing introspection and some journaling and reflecting about really realizing for myself that I identify as a man. I'm proud to be a man, and there's a lot of grief.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I think that men and boys go through with this promise of what we're told we're going to get. You know when you realize that that's that doesn't align to my values. I am not someone that values having power over people. I think that's something that's taught to us. I am in this late stage capitalism like shit show. You know, I was taught to like, yeah, climb the ladder and do blah, blah, blah. And then I got there and I'm like I don't want that, like there are many things that I realized that I was promised and then to get there and realize that like, absolutely not. Like that is not what I want or it's not who I've learned about.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I think for a lot of men that there's this grieving process of realizing that either the promise that we were given isn't there or that we realize that it's not what we want, and so I think that relates to rejection. I think it relates to other things. I think we often talk about rejection with men as it relates to sex and dating, but also, I think, with identity, that there is this grieving of oh, I think this is who I thought I was told to be, and that's not what I want, and that's not who I'm becoming, and so what does that mean? So, yeah, that's the thing.
Mia Voss:And where does that leave you in society for these men? And I feel like I've got some examples of it. But again, a friend I was speaking to last night had her boyfriend recently get ostracized from a group of men because he was being very vocal politically and I thought this was just so interesting Again here in Colorado and he was really grieving that. So interesting again here in Colorado and and he was really grieving that of um, and he doesn't even like doing the, the sport that they were all kind of centered around now, because he's relating it to that as well too. And so I think that's something. Yeah, we talk about the rejection from women, but the rejection from society when you're not, when everybody else, is the lemming going over the cliff or whatever that analogy is. Is it lemming over, yeah, and you're the one standing there like, no, I'm not going to do that, and what are the consequences of that?
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Well, and I won't get too into this rant because we have other stuff to talk about, but I love going to different barbershops and just hearing the conversations that are happening among men. And just hearing the conversations that are happening among men, how frequently I see signs that say we don't talk about politics is just astounding to me. Wow, and hearing conversations, people talking about sex dating and in my mind, like the things that I want to talk about are, I'm worried for people I care about, my family, my, you know, the people that I think are being under a focused attack under this administration. That's the stuff that's on my mind. I would love to connect with other men about. But then I see this giant sign that says we don't talk about politics here.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:You're going to be asked to leave and so wow a little bit of grief to around, like, oh, I could have camaraderie about people that share an identity, but I'm being literally told with a sign fuck you, you don't have space to talk about this or get out.
Mia Voss:Absolutely, and I'll point out, as us three white people, we'll do okay in this regime, if one, we don't give a shit about anybody and we can keep our mouths shut. Well, that's not going to work. So right, I mean we're, and that that is. That is very, that is very frustrating to hear and I want to make a point I just want to like.
Dr. Karen Rayne:I just want to like circle back to that just for a second, because my wife is Latina and so my, my baby, is half Latina and you know, like, I just want to be clear that you know, I'm also gay.
Mia Voss:So, yes, the regime is definitely coming for, especially Brown people, um, but I'm married to one and, at first glance, yes, we could get away with a lot, but we one. Either your child is right or, uh, you're, you have a wife like there's, there's, yeah, there's a lot to it.
Dr. Karen Rayne:it's it's so interesting that, yeah, people are like let's not talk about politics, like politics is everything politics is everything and this administration is actively working to harm all kinds of people for all kinds of things. I will say that project 2025 is very clear that it will also wreak harm on Corbin and I for our professional lives, so let's then call us pedophiles and charge us as such. So, in addition, there's all kinds of ways that people are hurt and I very much feel under attack, even if I were silent. Yeah.
Mia Voss:I agree, I agree and I, yeah, absolutely, and I think it's something that um, again, these conversations, that place where you were in the, the barbershop, if it's a bunch of men sitting around, because that system is geared to work for them, the rest of us are on the outs. If you're a white male, like kind of Christian, and don't want to talk about politics, politics in general can work for you. Although it is a big reckoning right now, don't you all think the fuck around and find out for everybody?
Dr. Karen Rayne:I don't think the politics does work out for all white men. I think it works out for a certain, a very narrow segment of very wealthy white men. White very wealthy white Christian straight men.
Mia Voss:I agree, I stand corrected on that. I kind of generalize a little bit, but I do. I have become more of that mindset of now it is. I mean, well, you look at who's going to benefit, tax wise.
Dr. Karen Rayne:And it's the rich, it is not white men.
Mia Voss:It's coming for everybody except for the very, very rich. And what are they saying? That Project 2025 is at of a completion. Do you all know? No, they don't know I did see something it said like 60, 65% fruition y'all. They really moved with the quickness.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Well, I think that that sign and I'll also be very clear that I've seen that sign and mostly in working class neighborhoods, working class communities, that sign and mostly in working class neighborhoods, working class communities these aren't like yuppie barbershops.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:One's just around the corner for me and the first ward in Buffalo, and I think that what we're seeing too is hopefully I'm hopeful that more people are seeing that things are more political than maybe they realized. And so, when we do talk about someone being laid off, when we talk about someone's neighbor, you know, being detained, those are political topics and I think that, you know, I think of my grandmother, you know, or grandparents who say you don't talk about sex, politics and religion, all of the things that I spend my entire day talking about One. We should always have been talking about these issues and I do hope that more people are finding that politics is part of life and it's impacting, like Karen said, and it's impacting, like Karen said, all of us. And that sign, I'm just like how do you? We can't quite justify it anymore. If we're talking about labor, if we're talking about work, there's so much I think that we can't avoid talking about.
Dr. Karen Rayne:You know, Corbin, I have a question for you about that. So my takeaway from that sign, I think, is different from yours, and so I'm just wondering you know how much of it is? Because the violence that erupted when people did talk about politics was unsustainable within that physical space.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I'm curious, say a little bit more say a little bit more.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Yeah, so I know that there are times and places when I shut down conversations about politics, and it's typically when I feel like the violence that is ramping up from that conversation is not sustainable or will become a level of violence that will be physically and psychologically harmful. And as a business, you know, if I were to see that, my reaction might be oh, you can't be trusted. You know, as a group, you men in this barbershop cannot be trusted, and so I'm going to remove this because you can't have nice things anymore. And so I'm wondering, like is it because they're like, oh, we don't need this, or is it the proprietors being? We can't sustain that, we cannot promise protection if you do this thing.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I think that's such an interesting point and that totally could be the case. I'm not sure.
Mia Voss:I think there was a before and after, to kind of to jump in. I mean, there's the politics before, which is when they should have been talking about it, right, Karen, when it could have been more of a like well, I don't agree about this policy or the school board or something like that, but now it is a dangerous territory.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Yeah, you know it's funny, it's in that same shot. That I'm thinking of is that there's no political talk, and then on the ceiling there is a Blue Lives Matter flag.
Dr. Karen Rayne:That's terrible, like we are now. Yes, they left.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I'm not trying to have a gotcha, Karen, because there have been spaces that haven't had that.
Dr. Karen Rayne:But I'm like, how do you make?
Corbin Knight-Dixon:this make sense.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Oh yes.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:We have one very political statement and then you're telling me not to talk about politics. You mean you don't want me talking about my politics or anything that's contrary to yours. But I do think that that is a fair question about in some spaces. Can they not contain the reactions and the potential aggression that might come out for political conversation?
Dr. Karen Rayne:So here in Texas and specifically I'm kind of on the edge of Austin, so I'm right in between the rural area and the Austin area and they're like one suburb out is Dripping Springs and it like it's been like deeply rural for a very long time and you know now it's getting like cute and a little more gay and you know, a little more austin is bleeding out there because people don't like the traffic in austin you know, all these things that happen, um, but there's a super cute bakery that has been there forever and it's delicious and people all kinds of people are loving to go out there and kind of get it, you know.
Dr. Karen Rayne:So it's destination, but it means that you get our deeply rural red folks and our deeply without masks are welcome in this space. Please do not attack anybody for their choices to wear or not wear a mask, and the sign remains. You know, in 2025, that sign is still up and there are still people with and without masks in this little culture clash of a bakery that is just so delicious and so, like that's where I'm coming from with that signage. I'm like clearly there was a problem, right, and they found this clash and they're trying to find a way to have their space be welcoming. And this is where I kind of go back to where I started at the beginning of our conversation of we really struggle to offer kindness. Humans struggle to be kind.
Mia Voss:That's a really great point, and I will bring in the irony of that ice the people that didn't want to wear masks are all masked up. Now I'm like, oh, oh, it's OK, now You're all good. But that's a great concept too. You can make your choice. It's a space where everybody can make their choice, One if they want to come in Right and then kind of leave. Leave each other alone on that. I want to go back real quick. You mentioned this book, the Anxious, what was it called, Karen?
Dr. Karen Rayne:The Anxious Generation and I can they have. The Anxious Generation has a great website, and so you can probably drop that in the show notes.
Mia Voss:I will, yeah, definitely, and I want to bring that up because I think it would be really important for everyone to read it.
Mia Voss:So think about me I'm a 60 year old woman with no kids, right, so I don't have a lot of connection to that, but I think it would be, from an intergenerational standpoint, super important for someone like me to read it as well, too right To understand that, because I'm getting towards that age when I could probably get a little cantankerous, get those kids off my lawn, kind of thing, and so, yeah, the hand raised, and I think that would be an excellent assignment for a lot of us too, to read that, whether we, or if our kids are grown, or if we don't have kids at all, like that.
Mia Voss:That sounds like an excellent way for people to start understanding this generation. Again, we brought up several examples of young men who felt really isolated from that. I want to start moving towards wrapping up, because I love the idea. If you both want to either talk about the we have the glimpses of the future moments in your work where something different is already happening with something that we brought up, and then if you've got some of your favorite, I can tell you both have really practical applications that you can give to people to give us some hope, or at least be part of the solution, rather than neutral or part of the problem.
Dr. Karen Rayne:Yeah, all right, well, I'll go first, you know. So I still teach human sexuality at the college level. I teach the University of Texas. I teach 600 students a year. I teach a lot of people and my classes used to be filled primarily with young women, and my percentages of young men are going up and I love it. They are stepping in and asking really powerful questions and, uh, engaging in a new kind of way. The last year and a half, two years, I've seen it a shift in the young men who are showing up in my college classes. That gives me a lot of hope for the process, the evolving process around masculinity and manhood that we are in. And then, in terms of you know a concrete thing, I would say that finding the way to listen from the quiet parts of your own self to the quiet parts of someone else, that's what we really need more of Thank you.
Mia Voss:I love that and I'm I'm taking that to heart as well because I know for myself again, being a woman that's come from that generation of the seventies and eighties, I can get a little heavy handed or, like you were mentioning, even you know, perhaps with the, with the, the friend's child of like, it could be like recognizing their pain or their grief. That is a huge point that you made. I want to really give you both kudos on on that that. That is not a word I would ever put in this conversation, you know.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I feel really I love that end quote, karen I feel really optimistic, which sounds wild to say as we're seeing what's happening. This is, you know, uh, july 10, 2025 and a lot of wild shit is happening in the world. But I I do feel really optimistic about masculinity and, karen and I have talked about this, I've shared this before you know, 10 years ago, I was seeing a lot of spaces that I work in that were still talking about toxic masculinity, that were still had this kind of like you know, men, you can be here, but like, if you say, step out of line, fuck off and get out and I just want to acknowledge that doesn't. That doesn't move us towards solutions and I appreciate Karen leaning into kindness, because I think that's how we're going to solve this issue is not saying men, fuck off, you've been doing things the wrong way for a long time. I agree.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:I think we've been doing things the wrong way for a long time, systemically and for the individual man in the group, how are we inviting them in and making them feel like you are welcome, you are a part of the solution. We're so glad that you're here. You know, I think I was lucky to have a kick-ass mom who explains this stuff to me, and so when I entered those spaces I didn't feel so defensive, but it still was there. I was like, am I supposed to be here? Should I leave? Because maybe I should just leave.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:And I'm seeing less of that. And it's not to let again the systems off the hook, but I think that's where we have to separate, be critical of the systems, not the individuals, and so we need to be kind to the individuals, and so I'm seeing more of that. I'm seeing, slowly, shifts in funding to say we need to work with men, we need to reframe the language that we're using and not say all men are trash and just toxic masculinity. I think the language that we use is actually really important, because it's a quick way to shame and to say I don't belong, and so I would love to see more of that, and we are seeing more of that. And so I would love to see more of that and we are seeing more of that. So that gives me a lot of hope and I hope for our field and I hope for people listening that they're thinking about how are they? Are we building space for people to be vulnerable and to feel like they belong, or are we using language and doing practices?
Mia Voss:that tell them that they're not welcome here. It reminds me of this scene I don't know if you guys remember the movie Jerry Maguire that her sister had the book club and Jerry comes walking in and they're all just railing and it's just a bunch of women. That's probably how Corbin felt, like walking in, Like am I supposed to be here? And that really is a great point, because you think about one of the unfortunate backlashes of the Me Too movement is a lot of men, rather than feeling like they're going to get their ass handed to them or called on the carpet, they just stopped inviting women to a lot of things too, because they were like, well, that's how we're going to fix it is. We just don't want you here, we don't want to worry about you know hearing something later. So both of your approaches that you just mentioned, I think, are incredibly important to make progress.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:And I think just the last thing I wanted to say is we did, we talked to some parents, we did surveys with folks. People are feeling that have lots of ideas of what masculinity looks like today, have lots of ideas of what masculinity looks like today, and they think that it's outside of the boxes that we've, you know, kind of traditionally thought of, that there's a lot more kindness, that there's a lot more advocacy. You know that they want safety, that they want to frolic in fields that they want to, you know, have more querying of masculinity. So there's so much that people are sharing. That, I think, is so positive and optimistic and I think it's unfortunate we don't hear enough about it. And so just to acknowledge and recognize that we are seeing the future of masculinity now, it's not hypothetical, we're practicing it. I think our hope is how do we spotlight it and draw more people into understanding that? You know there's a lot of narratives about what's not working and there's so much healthy practice about what is and how masculinity is being redefined and celebrated.
Mia Voss:And you're on the front lines of it and I love that. I know you've mentioned you've taken a lot of the surveys and spoken to a lot of people, karen any closing thoughts for you?
Dr. Karen Rayne:I don't think so. You know, I feel really honored being part of the conversation. I mean really, you know, thinking about like what's a space that we can or cannot be in, to be trying to start conversations about an identity that I do not hold, you know, I think is sometimes a challenging place to be, but I believe in it so deeply and I believe in the men who I teach and you know my colleagues who are men, and having these conversations with Corbin has just been such a beautiful piece of this last year and I just am so grateful. So I'll just say thank you, corbin, like thank you for everything.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Thank you.
Mia Voss:I love that. I love bringing you together for this too. That had to be like a full circle. And then you're continuing to do the work and you know if you're still here and listening. We bait and switched you. I bet you thought it was going to be a men bashing thing. Here and listening. We bait and switched you. I bet you thought it was going to be a men bashing thing Trick. Thanks for tuning in everyone. We'll have all the information of how to get in touch with our guests. Do you want to give any shout outs or anything that we can lead people to, or do you just want me to put it in the show notes?
Dr. Karen Rayne:So I am the director of education at an organization, a nonprofit. We have sex education curricula for kids from kindergarten through high school and we'd love that. If anybody wants to come and have a look at our resources, it's at wwwunhushedorg. Thank you, Dr.
Corbin Knight-Dixon:Karen. I would just quickly say that, corbinknightdixoncom. I work with Karen, some with Unhushed. I work in nonprofits, but I also docom. I work with Karen somewhat unhushed. I work in nonprofits, but I also do consulting and work with individuals, coaching workshops around topics like this and others, and so always happy to explore for people interested in having deeper conversations, doing more of this work.
Mia Voss:I would love to work with you don't be afraid that y'all, they'll talk to you. Thanks for tuning in everyone. Hey, thanks for tuning in. You can check out the show notes and guest links at shitwedontalkaboutpodcastcom. If you liked this episode, please subscribe and give it a like or leave a review, especially if it's a good one. See you next time. Bye.